As predicted by just about everyone who follows fringe politics, amidst Ukippy infighting, Ben Habib has thrown in the towel and Advance UK is apparently no more.
Excellent article. For me the whole ethnonationalist/civic nationalist schism is a nonsense that only helps the Left. We need both a recognition that nations form around specific ethnic identities that are real and a set of coherent civic values associated with those people. We need massive reduction of immigration and reassertion of the pride and equality of the native white ethnic groups, but in a confident way that can include patriotic and integrated ethnic minorities. There is lots of racism against the ethnic English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish that could be addressed and challenged without embracing Nazism or hating minorities. Nazism is as literally foreign to the English as Islamism is. I see no reason why we canโt say that English is a real ethnic category that deserves respect, for instance, AND that a black patriot is far more of an ally than a white Marxist is. We need some ethno-nationalism and some civic nationalism, in balance, and extremes of both end up just serving leftists either by being barking mad and unelectable at one end or by being pathetically weak and useless at the other end.
Come on Pete, Carl is a married father of 4. Let it go man.
I think it is important to be clear in one's understanding of the limits of the ethnos question. I believe ethnicity is the fundamental base layer of nationality. That doesn't mean I am an antisemitic ethno-purist. My position is not unusual, I suspect most vaguely nationalist people are of similar persuasion. We just want to be recognised as The People Of These Islands. Somewhere people, not fungible anywheres.
We need to move on from this Top Trumps bollocks, where all geopolitical views are collated and compared, so we can all get pigeonholed as this or that and put into a particular box. The perpetual algorithmification of everything...
Civic nationalism strikes me as an idiotic inability to understand the difference between a state and a nation.
A nation is essentially a very extended family: I've read that two Englishmen chosen at random are likely to be at least 12th cousins and this seems plausible.
Nationalism isn't about ethnic purity, but it does mean that people with no English ancestry can't possibly be English, which means that Elon Musk could be described as English but Mahmood and Badenoch couldn't.
How much English ancestry you need to be English is a subject of legitimate debate.
Very true it doesn't matter how decent or competent Rupert Lowe is as an individual leading a political party needs clear well defined polices which set the tramlines for its membership.
Rupert did very well in Great Yarmouth but he will never make PM at the next election, his sole aim, carrying on as he is.
With a greater level of political nous he could create serious shock waves the election after next but from what I gather he has no intention in remaining an MP after the next election if he doesn't win a majority and become PM.
What he may well do before then, which would be no bad thing, would be to expose Farage for the charlatan he is allowing somebody of real substance to take his place on the right of politics prepared for the long haul ahead.
As I believe things will still get worse before they improve I predict after the next election a government will be formed from a coalition of the left ie Labour,Liberals, Greens and SNP..
Hold onto your hats as the road ahead will be very bumpy!
We are about to enter 10 days of turbulence, during which a number of things will become clearer. If Burnham wins then your prediction could well be correct. If one of the others wins, the Count Binface party, for instance, then all bets are off.
However, maybe local interests will come to the fore, as they should.
ยซThe online support base is heavily leaning towards ethnonationalism, while the casual membership is just anti-immigration (c)onservative (hardline civic nationalist ukippery).ยป
My guess is that the great majority of them however have similar interests for higher property incomes and lower labor costs, and immigration has been really helpful as to increasing property incomes and "moderating" labor costs.
ยซPolitical parties can be broad churches. The Tory party has been a successful broad church comprising of libertarians, traditionalists and liberals because while there are some major disagreements, their ideology is still in the same ballpark where it matters.ยป
It is that their ideology that needs to be โin the same ballparkโ but far more importantly it is their interests that need to be either aligned or non-conflicting. The Conservatives were and are the party of the interests of property and business owners.
A very important quote from a famous USA conservative strategist:
ยซThe modern Reagan Republican Party, the modern conservative movement, if you want to know what it's going to do โฆ imagine a table and around it are all different groups. And on the issue that brings them to politics, not on everything, but the issue that moves their vote, what they want from the government is to be left alone. Taxpayers -- I run Americans for Tax Reform -- don't raise my taxes. The Second Amendment community -- I'm on the board of the National Rifle Association -- leave our guns alone. Four million members of the NRA, five million guys with concealed-carry โฆ they don't go knocking on doors saying you should own guns; they don't insist public schools teach books with titles like Heather Has Two Hunters. They just โฆ leave us alone and we're happy. The home-schooling movement, now about two million students, maybe 600,000 parents; the property-rights movement, particularly strengthened after Kelo; the business community that doesn't want subsidies, they just want to not be taxed and not regulated. [...] But on the issue that moves their vote โฆ they want to be left alone to practice their religion and raise their kids in that faith and not have schools throwing prophylactics at the kids and stuff. That's why the right, in the conservative movement and the Republican Party, we're able to have evangelical Protestants, fundamentalists, and Pentecostals, who don't agree theologically, and conservative Catholics and orthodox Jews and Muslims and Mormons who don't agree on who's going to Heaven and why, but understand that if they're gong to be able to raise their kids and go to Heaven, the pagans over there have got to have the same political freedom to go to Hades. Around the table you've got Pat Buchanan and others who look and see all the fissures on secondary and tertiary issues, and he's right.
But on the vote-moving primary issue, everybody's got their foot in the center and they're not in conflict on anything. The guy who wants to spend all day counting his money, the guy who wants to spend all day fondling his weaponry, and the guy who wants to go to church all day may look at each other and say, "That's pretty weird, that's not what I would do with my spare time, but that does not threaten my ability to go to church, have my guns, have my money, have my properties, run by my business, home-school my kids.ยป
When I have asked about deportation, race and nationality with out and out reform supporters I've usually got abuse. (I am married to a wonderful latina lady and so my kids are technically mixed race - but probably look like southern europeans perhaps).
The fact that the Lotus Eaters have gone all in on Restore worship should tell you all you need to know.
FWIW - probably in a similar state of despair as many others. I want Reform/Restore to utter destroy Labour/LibDem/Tories for what theyโve done. Iโm not sure I want them anywhere near power though in their current form.
I trust them, but sadly have had to conclude Reform arenโt trustworthy. I would only vote for them if the parties you mentioned were the only parties available to vote for.
I don't think they are serious for the reasons Pete spells out.
Lets be clear - I don't believe you are deporting anyone that has a right to be here. You aren't deporting anyone that is a citizen of this country if they don't want to go. You won't be able to make a law that would do that. Or if you did you'd be down to a law that wouldn't distinguish between people you want here and people you don't - UNLESS you make it racial - but even then its hard to define. And at that point you're having to potentially split up mixed marriages etc. Its an absolute mine field.
Best you're gonna manage really is a very robust civic nationalism, re enforce British, small c christian cultural norms, and drive multiculturalism out of public spaces.... then some people would probably leave of their own accord. But its a fanstasy isnt it because nobody is every going to have that level of control
But thatโs it you see - define โBritishโ - is it a legal status or is it defined by heritage and race?
Unfortunately we have multigenerational enclaves within this country that are replicas of the home country.
Making a law that targets them that doesnโt target other immigrants that are a benefit to the country.
Itโs literally like cancer where you have a growth that is parasitic on the body but because is made of essentially the same material as the healthy body very difficult to target.
Unfortunately, the cancer is sporadic and if and when excised may cause significant damage to the healthy tissue. But not dealing with the issue will ultimately lead to the death of the body.
Excellent article. For me the whole ethnonationalist/civic nationalist schism is a nonsense that only helps the Left. We need both a recognition that nations form around specific ethnic identities that are real and a set of coherent civic values associated with those people. We need massive reduction of immigration and reassertion of the pride and equality of the native white ethnic groups, but in a confident way that can include patriotic and integrated ethnic minorities. There is lots of racism against the ethnic English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish that could be addressed and challenged without embracing Nazism or hating minorities. Nazism is as literally foreign to the English as Islamism is. I see no reason why we canโt say that English is a real ethnic category that deserves respect, for instance, AND that a black patriot is far more of an ally than a white Marxist is. We need some ethno-nationalism and some civic nationalism, in balance, and extremes of both end up just serving leftists either by being barking mad and unelectable at one end or by being pathetically weak and useless at the other end.
Very wise and balanced view.
Thanks Martin. ๐
Swindonian incels?! ๐
Come on Pete, Carl is a married father of 4. Let it go man.
I think it is important to be clear in one's understanding of the limits of the ethnos question. I believe ethnicity is the fundamental base layer of nationality. That doesn't mean I am an antisemitic ethno-purist. My position is not unusual, I suspect most vaguely nationalist people are of similar persuasion. We just want to be recognised as The People Of These Islands. Somewhere people, not fungible anywheres.
We need to move on from this Top Trumps bollocks, where all geopolitical views are collated and compared, so we can all get pigeonholed as this or that and put into a particular box. The perpetual algorithmification of everything...
Thank you for illustrating my point.
Civic nationalism strikes me as an idiotic inability to understand the difference between a state and a nation.
A nation is essentially a very extended family: I've read that two Englishmen chosen at random are likely to be at least 12th cousins and this seems plausible.
Nationalism isn't about ethnic purity, but it does mean that people with no English ancestry can't possibly be English, which means that Elon Musk could be described as English but Mahmood and Badenoch couldn't.
How much English ancestry you need to be English is a subject of legitimate debate.
Very true it doesn't matter how decent or competent Rupert Lowe is as an individual leading a political party needs clear well defined polices which set the tramlines for its membership.
Rupert did very well in Great Yarmouth but he will never make PM at the next election, his sole aim, carrying on as he is.
With a greater level of political nous he could create serious shock waves the election after next but from what I gather he has no intention in remaining an MP after the next election if he doesn't win a majority and become PM.
What he may well do before then, which would be no bad thing, would be to expose Farage for the charlatan he is allowing somebody of real substance to take his place on the right of politics prepared for the long haul ahead.
As I believe things will still get worse before they improve I predict after the next election a government will be formed from a coalition of the left ie Labour,Liberals, Greens and SNP..
Hold onto your hats as the road ahead will be very bumpy!
We are about to enter 10 days of turbulence, during which a number of things will become clearer. If Burnham wins then your prediction could well be correct. If one of the others wins, the Count Binface party, for instance, then all bets are off.
However, maybe local interests will come to the fore, as they should.
ยซThe online support base is heavily leaning towards ethnonationalism, while the casual membership is just anti-immigration (c)onservative (hardline civic nationalist ukippery).ยป
My guess is that the great majority of them however have similar interests for higher property incomes and lower labor costs, and immigration has been really helpful as to increasing property incomes and "moderating" labor costs.
ยซPolitical parties can be broad churches. The Tory party has been a successful broad church comprising of libertarians, traditionalists and liberals because while there are some major disagreements, their ideology is still in the same ballpark where it matters.ยป
It is that their ideology that needs to be โin the same ballparkโ but far more importantly it is their interests that need to be either aligned or non-conflicting. The Conservatives were and are the party of the interests of property and business owners.
A very important quote from a famous USA conservative strategist:
http://www.prospect.org/article/world-according-grover
ยซThe modern Reagan Republican Party, the modern conservative movement, if you want to know what it's going to do โฆ imagine a table and around it are all different groups. And on the issue that brings them to politics, not on everything, but the issue that moves their vote, what they want from the government is to be left alone. Taxpayers -- I run Americans for Tax Reform -- don't raise my taxes. The Second Amendment community -- I'm on the board of the National Rifle Association -- leave our guns alone. Four million members of the NRA, five million guys with concealed-carry โฆ they don't go knocking on doors saying you should own guns; they don't insist public schools teach books with titles like Heather Has Two Hunters. They just โฆ leave us alone and we're happy. The home-schooling movement, now about two million students, maybe 600,000 parents; the property-rights movement, particularly strengthened after Kelo; the business community that doesn't want subsidies, they just want to not be taxed and not regulated. [...] But on the issue that moves their vote โฆ they want to be left alone to practice their religion and raise their kids in that faith and not have schools throwing prophylactics at the kids and stuff. That's why the right, in the conservative movement and the Republican Party, we're able to have evangelical Protestants, fundamentalists, and Pentecostals, who don't agree theologically, and conservative Catholics and orthodox Jews and Muslims and Mormons who don't agree on who's going to Heaven and why, but understand that if they're gong to be able to raise their kids and go to Heaven, the pagans over there have got to have the same political freedom to go to Hades. Around the table you've got Pat Buchanan and others who look and see all the fissures on secondary and tertiary issues, and he's right.
But on the vote-moving primary issue, everybody's got their foot in the center and they're not in conflict on anything. The guy who wants to spend all day counting his money, the guy who wants to spend all day fondling his weaponry, and the guy who wants to go to church all day may look at each other and say, "That's pretty weird, that's not what I would do with my spare time, but that does not threaten my ability to go to church, have my guns, have my money, have my properties, run by my business, home-school my kids.ยป
When I have asked about deportation, race and nationality with out and out reform supporters I've usually got abuse. (I am married to a wonderful latina lady and so my kids are technically mixed race - but probably look like southern europeans perhaps).
The fact that the Lotus Eaters have gone all in on Restore worship should tell you all you need to know.
FWIW - probably in a similar state of despair as many others. I want Reform/Restore to utter destroy Labour/LibDem/Tories for what theyโve done. Iโm not sure I want them anywhere near power though in their current form.
Iโm sure they will improve as they proceed.
I canโt see an alternative to Restore.
I trust them, but sadly have had to conclude Reform arenโt trustworthy. I would only vote for them if the parties you mentioned were the only parties available to vote for.
I don't think they are serious for the reasons Pete spells out.
Lets be clear - I don't believe you are deporting anyone that has a right to be here. You aren't deporting anyone that is a citizen of this country if they don't want to go. You won't be able to make a law that would do that. Or if you did you'd be down to a law that wouldn't distinguish between people you want here and people you don't - UNLESS you make it racial - but even then its hard to define. And at that point you're having to potentially split up mixed marriages etc. Its an absolute mine field.
Best you're gonna manage really is a very robust civic nationalism, re enforce British, small c christian cultural norms, and drive multiculturalism out of public spaces.... then some people would probably leave of their own accord. But its a fanstasy isnt it because nobody is every going to have that level of control
Iโm sure there will be a logical and moral process for remigration.
I donโt believe he has any intention of deporting people who are British, have no serious criminal record and are no threat to the UK (terrorists).
No one should be a drag on the country as far as benefits are concerned, though disabled persons should not be included.
Those that donโt work should be given opportunities provided to work and only if they refuse it, should be given their marching orders.
I doubt thereโd be many refusing work.
But thatโs it you see - define โBritishโ - is it a legal status or is it defined by heritage and race?
Unfortunately we have multigenerational enclaves within this country that are replicas of the home country.
Making a law that targets them that doesnโt target other immigrants that are a benefit to the country.
Itโs literally like cancer where you have a growth that is parasitic on the body but because is made of essentially the same material as the healthy body very difficult to target.
Unfortunately, the cancer is sporadic and if and when excised may cause significant damage to the healthy tissue. But not dealing with the issue will ultimately lead to the death of the body.
I was very disappointed that Restore appointed a corrupt ex Tory MP,Scott Benton ,to head their campaign in Mackersfield.
My mother was French so all the abuse is water off a ducks back.
Take no notice, theyโre either racists or bigots.
Silly runts.
I donโt pay them any heed really but like Pete has pointed out dear old uncle Rupert has to draw a line in the sand at some pointโฆ
Rupertโs a basically decent mam and thatโs enough for me to trust him and his party.
Iโve never voted Tory but as individuals Iโve found them generally to be good people. Labour supporters, not so much.
Labour are awful - they are high on their own sense of self righteousness.
Rupert is English Joe Biden.
It would be useful if you defined your terms here, particularly ethnonationalism.