I am English. My name means forest dweller, as you might deduce.
I can trace my maternal blood line back to Elizabethan England. I guess that makes me English to such extent as any of us are purely anything.
My friend is English in the sense he was born in Morley. His parents were Serbian. They came here to escape the nazis. His father, once here, joined the Royal Navy and fought in WW2. BUT, he is not ethnically English. He is Serbian and he looks Serbian. Nonetheless, he has every right to be here. For practical purposes he is English but he is in fact just British. We agree on this. He has a British passport which was earned by his father at the very least.
You can become British but you cannot become English, Welsh, Scots or Irish.
What I am suggesting is a civic sense of British nationalism, which isn't very satisfactory if you can just rock up and get one the next day, which is where we are at.
British passports need to be earned and that means behaving in a way commensurate with that status.
I found out today that we now have people coming here from Sth America to escape socialism and being granted asylum on that basis.
This has to stop and all aliens need to be deported.
Please forgive me just picking an aside from your detailed comment.
"coming here from Sth America to escape socialism"..... did not any kind person warn them that they might be jumping out of the socialist Latino country into the on course to be hyper-socialist England/UK/Britain (wait for the budget!!)
It’s somewhat amusing that this has come up at the same time as the Sheeran debacle.
Sheeran maybe 1/4 Irish and self identifies as ‘culturally Irish’ but he isn’t Irish anymore than I, as a Brit with an Irish mother. I’m Anglo Irish, and to my culturally sensitive cousins, a Brit.
I can’t choose otherwise: I can’t opt in. I might over time if I so was inclined live a long time in RoI and be accepted by locals as Irish, but slapping a label on me (O’im oirish so tharr) because I feel I am does not make me so.
I am however English according to my cousins. Or certainly British.
For me? I identify as British not least because I can cover all bases there: 2 Irish grandparents, 1 English, 1 Welsh. British is a coverall for multiple identities. Always has been always will. But opting into English without a birthright means effectively claiming something you aren’t. I don’t think that makes me an Ethno: I just accept that the British label works for me because I am a mix and comfortable with that. I speak with RP and my cousins identify me as English but I know I am a mix. And that’s fine.
A bit like the Sheeran situation: a man who knows little of Ireland has decided he knows how the post independence, post civil war mindset possibly works with regards to politics. Because he is ‘culturally Irish’.
No he isn’t. And no he doesn’t. Hanging out in Galway listening to folk bands does not entitle you to that label.
Had he done the ‘I’m no longer British, but Irish’ I suspect he might have got more leeway. But ‘culturally’? Dead in the water. And that’s the point of ‘Britishness’: it’s a coverall for multiple identities: it was designed for Welsh, English, Irish and Scottish identities. Or even those who apply for a passport.
It is expansive and can be made more so. English however is somewhat more prescriptive. And should be. As per RoI you don’t get to nominally opt yourself into that label because frankly you don’t ‘know’. I think Konstantin Kisin has the right of this. He is as British as I am. He is not ‘English’ and neither really am I. And that’s cool. Both of us *want* to be British. And there is no reason why that shouldn’t be so. Provided we cleave to British values.
It’s a shame we are having this conversation. We have quietly muddled along with newcomers and visitors for centuries, without thinking too hard about the issue. We all knew who we were and were polite to those who generally liked us and wanted to be here. If that casual live and let live ideal has gone, it’s partly our fault for letting it go and the fault of those who want to wreck it and play out their fantasy world of Imagine.
It’s interesting as an American with deep ties to England (and other parts of the UK)—I have zero interest in other cultures there. I’m interested in my family and history—the Scots, Irish, English and Welsh—and were I interested in Pakistan I’d go there. Pakistani heritage has no value to me in the UK or anywhere else—and that’s my right—rather like I imagine diaspora Pakistanis would not be at all interested in Scots residents in Peshawar, should such a thing exist. The fact that westerners cannot be interested in their own European families and history is…bananas. I want to connect with my history—not someone else’s. It’s bizarre that we have to state this.
No I knew of one of my ancestors was born in Douglas (another was born in Dublin).
My English heritage is from my grandmother whose parentage was Cumbrian whilst my grandfather was born in Dover of two Welsh parents.
He went back to Wales as a baby and when he ‘grew up’ worked in mines until being invalided out at 14 after two roof cave ins that smashed up his legs.
"not least because of what it leads to when you follow it to its logical conclusion. "
What does it logically lead to? Recognising that people aren't part of your nation doesn't require you to want them expelled just because of that or to deny them equal treatment under the law or even to be unpleasant to them. You just don't want too many, or that they demand you change to suit them.
"I could have a pretty decent stab at defining them"
I seriously doubt that you could: there's the problem of units of measurement.
I am English. My name means forest dweller, as you might deduce.
I can trace my maternal blood line back to Elizabethan England. I guess that makes me English to such extent as any of us are purely anything.
My friend is English in the sense he was born in Morley. His parents were Serbian. They came here to escape the nazis. His father, once here, joined the Royal Navy and fought in WW2. BUT, he is not ethnically English. He is Serbian and he looks Serbian. Nonetheless, he has every right to be here. For practical purposes he is English but he is in fact just British. We agree on this. He has a British passport which was earned by his father at the very least.
You can become British but you cannot become English, Welsh, Scots or Irish.
What I am suggesting is a civic sense of British nationalism, which isn't very satisfactory if you can just rock up and get one the next day, which is where we are at.
British passports need to be earned and that means behaving in a way commensurate with that status.
I found out today that we now have people coming here from Sth America to escape socialism and being granted asylum on that basis.
This has to stop and all aliens need to be deported.
Please forgive me just picking an aside from your detailed comment.
"coming here from Sth America to escape socialism"..... did not any kind person warn them that they might be jumping out of the socialist Latino country into the on course to be hyper-socialist England/UK/Britain (wait for the budget!!)
Yes, I thought that myself. But the government here haven't got around to turning up at your house and shooting at you just yet. 😂
Point taken
It’s somewhat amusing that this has come up at the same time as the Sheeran debacle.
Sheeran maybe 1/4 Irish and self identifies as ‘culturally Irish’ but he isn’t Irish anymore than I, as a Brit with an Irish mother. I’m Anglo Irish, and to my culturally sensitive cousins, a Brit.
I can’t choose otherwise: I can’t opt in. I might over time if I so was inclined live a long time in RoI and be accepted by locals as Irish, but slapping a label on me (O’im oirish so tharr) because I feel I am does not make me so.
I am however English according to my cousins. Or certainly British.
For me? I identify as British not least because I can cover all bases there: 2 Irish grandparents, 1 English, 1 Welsh. British is a coverall for multiple identities. Always has been always will. But opting into English without a birthright means effectively claiming something you aren’t. I don’t think that makes me an Ethno: I just accept that the British label works for me because I am a mix and comfortable with that. I speak with RP and my cousins identify me as English but I know I am a mix. And that’s fine.
A bit like the Sheeran situation: a man who knows little of Ireland has decided he knows how the post independence, post civil war mindset possibly works with regards to politics. Because he is ‘culturally Irish’.
No he isn’t. And no he doesn’t. Hanging out in Galway listening to folk bands does not entitle you to that label.
Had he done the ‘I’m no longer British, but Irish’ I suspect he might have got more leeway. But ‘culturally’? Dead in the water. And that’s the point of ‘Britishness’: it’s a coverall for multiple identities: it was designed for Welsh, English, Irish and Scottish identities. Or even those who apply for a passport.
It is expansive and can be made more so. English however is somewhat more prescriptive. And should be. As per RoI you don’t get to nominally opt yourself into that label because frankly you don’t ‘know’. I think Konstantin Kisin has the right of this. He is as British as I am. He is not ‘English’ and neither really am I. And that’s cool. Both of us *want* to be British. And there is no reason why that shouldn’t be so. Provided we cleave to British values.
Precisely.
It’s a shame we are having this conversation. We have quietly muddled along with newcomers and visitors for centuries, without thinking too hard about the issue. We all knew who we were and were polite to those who generally liked us and wanted to be here. If that casual live and let live ideal has gone, it’s partly our fault for letting it go and the fault of those who want to wreck it and play out their fantasy world of Imagine.
💯
It’s interesting as an American with deep ties to England (and other parts of the UK)—I have zero interest in other cultures there. I’m interested in my family and history—the Scots, Irish, English and Welsh—and were I interested in Pakistan I’d go there. Pakistani heritage has no value to me in the UK or anywhere else—and that’s my right—rather like I imagine diaspora Pakistanis would not be at all interested in Scots residents in Peshawar, should such a thing exist. The fact that westerners cannot be interested in their own European families and history is…bananas. I want to connect with my history—not someone else’s. It’s bizarre that we have to state this.
English is no longer a category used in medical records or gov forms etc….
When collecting data the categories are:
white British
Black British / Caribbean or African
British Asian / Pakistani/ Indian etc.
etc..
But never ‘English’ - so even though it is an ethnicity it is never captured
Getting you DNA checked is an education in your historical origins.
In descending order I have French, Celtic, English, Danish/Swedish, Isle of Man roots.
A menagerie, of West European origins traceable for generations, but no hint of other continents.
I am eligible for French or dual nationality, but I don’t feel French.
I’m British, so it would be a lie (although I do sometimes display a Gallic shrug) so a British passport only.
If a DNA check is capable of detecting Manx ancestry it's capable of saying which part of England your ancestors came from.
No I knew of one of my ancestors was born in Douglas (another was born in Dublin).
My English heritage is from my grandmother whose parentage was Cumbrian whilst my grandfather was born in Dover of two Welsh parents.
He went back to Wales as a baby and when he ‘grew up’ worked in mines until being invalided out at 14 after two roof cave ins that smashed up his legs.
White privilege in the British Empire
"not least because of what it leads to when you follow it to its logical conclusion. "
What does it logically lead to? Recognising that people aren't part of your nation doesn't require you to want them expelled just because of that or to deny them equal treatment under the law or even to be unpleasant to them. You just don't want too many, or that they demand you change to suit them.
"I could have a pretty decent stab at defining them"
I seriously doubt that you could: there's the problem of units of measurement.