“further exacerbated by delays in discharge because the care system is a mess”
There is another discharge problem, which I recently experienced first hand due to my elderly mother enduring a 9 day spell in hospital (Leicester Royal). This is the fact that the NHS is not a full 7 day service. At weekends, it effectively treads water, and very little happens.
She was waiting to see a physio before they would sign off on her discharge (to her own home), and whilst this could have been done on the Friday it wasn’t. Asking at the ward reception desk if anything was scheduled over the weekend, I was told “if it happens, it happens, but it probably won’t”.
She was not seen on the ward rounds either on the Saturday or Sunday, that was reserved for priority cases. It was only on the Monday morning ward round that the doctor (who was the 3rd, might have been the 4th, different ward round doctor to have seen her) actually got a physio to turn up and she was discharged later that day. She simply wasted three days occupying a bed which could have been used by someone else.
Overall, it felt to me, that there is just no sense of urgency and there is no one who is what you might call the “point man” for a particular patient. Everything felt so lackadaisical and disjointed. In addition, no one could claim that the reason for this is understaffing.
And don’t get me started on the f**king admissions process.
Not so in my local hospital. The Emergency Dept will be overwhelmed but will prioritise the urgent cases.
As James M writes, many facilities are poorly staffed at the weekend and can delay your discharge.
Our recent experience was that we received excellent care from a highly overstretched staff. They were often running down the corridor to get to a patient. Getting a decision from a doctor took a long time plus you rarely saw the same doctor twice.
I think, unfortunately, you are comparing apples and pears between you and James. One is an admission urgency, the other is a discharge non-urgency. My husband spent many hours in hospital in June of last year as he was dying of terminal lung cancer. We knew that was the case but had no idea of timings, obviously. I was waiting for decisions about his ongoing care which were delayed entirely over the two weekends he was in there. James is right. Nothing happens at weekends. I made a diary note of what I described as the 'scattergun' approach to my husband's care. They weren't aware that he was vomitting his essential medication and wasn't eating or drinking. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
Agree Reform have wasted the head start in the polls - they needed to show a serious interest in serious topics - health, defence, education, justice, prisons, energy, farming and so on. We don’t expect them to have answers but they could have commissions of interest, fact finding and researching - just asking the right questions would be a start. Immigration is not the only issue and talking too much about it puts some people as well as making Reform look like a one-trick pony. In also needs to decide whether it is the Thatcher Party or the SDP/Blue Labour Party - more so now that Burnham is keen to blame all our ills on Thatcher.
Right now - I am extremely sorry to say - Reform is looking like a one-man band which has lost its drumstick, and is failing to get the barman's attention in the Last Chance Saloon. Never mind, there's a carnival coming up shortly in Clacton - let's see what the clowns get up to next. Toot toot!
Our country's biggest ingrained problems, as with any problems for that matter, require a great deal of thought, analysis and attention to detail from serious politicians and there in lies our problem as most politicians are cosmetic incompetent charlatans.
I rate the collective will of the 'people' every time over that of the 650 MPs in parliament.
Totally agree, but the State is never going to allow that to happen, and they work hard to keep both sides fighting each other, just as it done for centuries. The collective will of the people just ain't going to be allowed to happen. We know where that ends.
Parliament is arranged to be adversarial - 'divide et impera' - so everything is kept under control, and the 650 MPs are completely irrelevant. The real power resides many layers higher in the system, and it's quite happy to keep a bunch of 'cosmetic, incompetent charlatans' in place.
But if five of the six demands the Chartists made in 1838 were enacted because of people pressure then I see no reason why a well organised mass people's movement today should not succeed.
If, if, if, if .... Good luck with that, but it will never happen. The Chartists got nearly everything they wanted after 20 years of trying, although probably starting with Peterloo, but all the State had to do was move the goalposts further down the pitch to ensure that it made no difference. And all the time the State gets larger and stronger, because there is more and more that it has to manage and control.
And we end up with a totalitarian State that everyone voted for. I believe it's called 'The Third Way'.
Or perhaps it should properly be called the Third Reich? Ever read much about what was really going on during the last year of WWII in Europe, between the US, Allies, Germany, and the people funding it all in Switzerland?
Well I totally agree the turn around takes time, and will see me out, as after all from the Levellers to the Chartists it took around 270 years for man to get the vote.
However it's all very well assessing we are all doomed but what is your solution for our future?
At least THA offers a template for a new start when we've reached rock bottom!
Sadly, with an ever growing debt balloon that must burst in the near future, we are going to be back in Peterloo territory with people unable to feed themselves.
If there is a mass march on Westminster and Westminster government is overthrown, then THA provides a most excellent template for a new governing body to adopt.
I owe you a reply, and it's helped me to get my thoughts in order.
I am of the opinion now that there is nothing that is going to stop the country's descent into chaos. You only have to look around; it is not hard to see. Everything is now failing and falling apart. The term Managed Decline was conceived over 40 years ago, and we weren't supposed to know about it, but now we should all realise that is what we are living through.
I am also of the opinion that politics and politicians are not going to change this, and that some sort of major upheaval is coming towards us. We have had 7 or 8 PM's in 10 years (I've lost count) and none of them has made any difference, and most of them have just made things worse.
As GregB wrote in reply to you, 'with an ever-growing debt balloon that must burst in the near future, we are going to be back in Peterloo territory'. I think we are there already and all our government can do is to tax the people who work to pay for those that won't work. And if we won't, they will just import a cheaper set of workers to replace us, and at the same time telling the voters they are doing the complete opposite. We have to repay all that debt to the banks and bond markets that actually fund us, you know.
The Elites (the ones who devise and control The System, i.e. our ruling families, the hangers on, the government, bankers, civil servants, court system, quangos, military, etc, etc) know all this already. They have been in control long enough to know where this is going, and it usually ends in civil war and revolution, and it is always due to the money, debt, and starvation.
Over the centuries, we have seen the First English Revolution, the American, French, Russian, Austria-Hungary (WWI), Chinese, Cuban, Iranian, etc, etc. They take decades to play out, and millions are killed in the mayhem that follows.
So, to get to the point of your request for a solution, I don't think I have one because I don't think there is one. Que sera, sera, as the song goes, and there is really nothing that the people can do through the ballot box, as all the power is held by a tiny minority and they are going to ensure that it stays that way.
It may have taken 270 years, from the Levellers to the Chartists, for males to get the vote, but The System made sure it made no difference. Democracy is a sham, and if voting made any difference, they wouldn't let the Great Unwashed vote.
You didn't mention the Diggers, by the way. Were they the first Socialists? Nobody wanted them and they were hounded out of everywhere they tried to establish themselves. And the Levellers? Cromwell made use of them in his army, and then destroyed them after they became a problem. That's the way power works. It ain't nice and kind.
Having something like the THA will not make a blind bit of difference, unless 'the collective will of the people' appears as either a major political force or a revolutionary force. The State knows this and are doing their damndest to ensure it doesn't happen again. They have been at it for 400 years or more, since they lost control to Cromwell, so they have had a lot of practice.
So maybe everyone will suddenly see the light and vote for a new fiscally-conservative party that knows what it is doing. The direction of travel would suggest that will never happen. It has taken 100 years or more (when Britain fought 2 World Wars in quick succession, ran out of money and lost the Empire) to get to this situation. And I guess it will take another 100 years to get out of it.
Or maybe we will see the Second English Revolution. Who knows?
Well that was a long post to say things will get worse, which I've been saying for at least 10 years, and that we face possible revolution with which I again agree!!
BTW you don't 'get' THA the people have to demand political reform and when we do start to build again,as I've said already, it can act as a template to ensure we build something better.
Our governance for years has been based on jobs for the boys and girls and short-termism led by politicians who are largely cosmetic and incompetent.
So in conclusion I agree things will get worse and the THA exists if anybody out there wishes to pick it up and run with it. And finally mass movements work so long as they follow the peaceful principles of Gene Sharp and coordinate via a starfish structure so if one leg is cut off another grows in its place.
Thanks for the exchange - we are I feel on the same page but perhaps in different paragraphs!!
What will undercut Burnham is any Islamic attacks against UK targets.
His decision to retain a Muslim in charge of security who declared her loyalty to Islam, will be indefensible.
Reform has a similar problem. Farage has retreated from mass deportation, saying it’s impossible.
Another atrocity in the UK, will make his statement look like a confession of defeat.
The same applies to the Tory’s who can’t hide from their chronic migratory open borders approach whilst in power.
Restore is able to say ‘I told you so’ after a UK atrocity.
Also in France if Le Pen takes over there will be an interesting conundrum for UK politicians.
If Le Pen stops migration into France and therefore the UK, but more come in from Belgium, what will Burnham (and previous PMs) say about stopping mass migration?
She’s right wing? Well that’s goodbye to the left in the UK.
Trigonometry said a future NHS will have to charge a fee to continue. I don’t think so.
IF mass remigration occurs and re purposed drugs are introduced, labour costs will reduce due to a lower populace and higher efficiency (the task of diagnosis for instance will be taken over by AI).
Re purposed drugs will also make a huge difference for the likes of cancers and arthritis.
Triggonometry also think that mass remigration and reducing populace (due to population aging and reducing birth rates) will lead to a boost to house building?
Surely it is the reverse, a housing excess and lower prices as demand drops seems much more likely.
A house clearance programme seems much more likely.
What will undercut Burnham is any Islamic attacks against UK targets.
His decision to retain a Muslim in charge of security who declared her loyalty to Islam, will be indefensible.
Reform has a similar problem. Farage has retreated from mass deportation, saying it’s impossible.
Another atrocity in the UK, will make his statement look like a confession of defeat.
The same applies to the Tory’s who can’t hide from their chronic migratory open borders approach whilst in power.
Restore is able to say ‘I told you so’ after a UK atrocity.
Also in France if Le Pen takes over there will be an interesting conundrum for UK politicians.
If Le Pen stops migration into France and therefore the UK, but more come in from Belgium, what will Burnham (and previous PMs) say about stopping mass migration?
She’s right wing? Well that’s goodbye to the left in the UK.
Trigonometry said a future NHS will have to charge a fee to continue. I don’t think so.
IF mass remigration occurs and re purposed drugs are introduced, labour costs will reduce due to a lower populace and higher efficiency (the task of diagnosis for instance will be taken over by AI).
Re purposed drugs will also make a huge difference for the likes of cancers and arthritis.
Triggonometry also think that mass remigration and reducing populace (due to population aging and reducing birth rates) will lead to a boost to house building?
Surely it is the reverse, housing excess and therefore lower prices, as demand drops, is much more likely.
A house clearance programme is going to be needed.
I think if Burnham does anything it will be out of economic necessity. The vast majority of immigration has now become a burden, Burnham will be more in touch with the red wall, he must know how unpopular the politicians actions on immigration have been for decades and how it is a driver for low wages. He's got a choice, a proper socialist or a Blairite, he could go either way. But by adjusting the economic model and just cutting the finanical incentives for immigration without forced remigration he could well outflank Reform and Restore.
FWIW one of the problems is that the elderly are the ones who pose the heaviest burden on the NHS; take my situation - the most appalling arthritis in my hands preventing me from doing many dexterous tasks such as hanging out washing. Now, I can hang my washing inside on an airer, so this isn't the end of the world, but expand my 'disability' and take into account that any surgery is largely not hugely successful but in any case requires six weeks of not using my hands. That's no washing, no cooking and no making a hot/cold drink. As a widow living alone, recovery in my own home is not helpful at all.
Secondly, offering a discount to buy your property for care workers would only decrease the supply for those workers required as replacements over time. You've just gone around in a complete circle with that one, I'm afraid. I told HMG some years ago, that it should offer discounted rents, especially to inner city essential workers, such as firemen, policemen, ambulance drivers & nurses and such. This would allow people to afford to live in scarce urban accommodation without absorbing almost all of their wage.
In the 6th paragraph, you state:
“further exacerbated by delays in discharge because the care system is a mess”
There is another discharge problem, which I recently experienced first hand due to my elderly mother enduring a 9 day spell in hospital (Leicester Royal). This is the fact that the NHS is not a full 7 day service. At weekends, it effectively treads water, and very little happens.
She was waiting to see a physio before they would sign off on her discharge (to her own home), and whilst this could have been done on the Friday it wasn’t. Asking at the ward reception desk if anything was scheduled over the weekend, I was told “if it happens, it happens, but it probably won’t”.
She was not seen on the ward rounds either on the Saturday or Sunday, that was reserved for priority cases. It was only on the Monday morning ward round that the doctor (who was the 3rd, might have been the 4th, different ward round doctor to have seen her) actually got a physio to turn up and she was discharged later that day. She simply wasted three days occupying a bed which could have been used by someone else.
Overall, it felt to me, that there is just no sense of urgency and there is no one who is what you might call the “point man” for a particular patient. Everything felt so lackadaisical and disjointed. In addition, no one could claim that the reason for this is understaffing.
And don’t get me started on the f**king admissions process.
You certainly don't want to become seriously ill at the weekend.
Not so in my local hospital. The Emergency Dept will be overwhelmed but will prioritise the urgent cases.
As James M writes, many facilities are poorly staffed at the weekend and can delay your discharge.
Our recent experience was that we received excellent care from a highly overstretched staff. They were often running down the corridor to get to a patient. Getting a decision from a doctor took a long time plus you rarely saw the same doctor twice.
I think, unfortunately, you are comparing apples and pears between you and James. One is an admission urgency, the other is a discharge non-urgency. My husband spent many hours in hospital in June of last year as he was dying of terminal lung cancer. We knew that was the case but had no idea of timings, obviously. I was waiting for decisions about his ongoing care which were delayed entirely over the two weekends he was in there. James is right. Nothing happens at weekends. I made a diary note of what I described as the 'scattergun' approach to my husband's care. They weren't aware that he was vomitting his essential medication and wasn't eating or drinking. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
Agree Reform have wasted the head start in the polls - they needed to show a serious interest in serious topics - health, defence, education, justice, prisons, energy, farming and so on. We don’t expect them to have answers but they could have commissions of interest, fact finding and researching - just asking the right questions would be a start. Immigration is not the only issue and talking too much about it puts some people as well as making Reform look like a one-trick pony. In also needs to decide whether it is the Thatcher Party or the SDP/Blue Labour Party - more so now that Burnham is keen to blame all our ills on Thatcher.
Right now - I am extremely sorry to say - Reform is looking like a one-man band which has lost its drumstick, and is failing to get the barman's attention in the Last Chance Saloon. Never mind, there's a carnival coming up shortly in Clacton - let's see what the clowns get up to next. Toot toot!
Our country's biggest ingrained problems, as with any problems for that matter, require a great deal of thought, analysis and attention to detail from serious politicians and there in lies our problem as most politicians are cosmetic incompetent charlatans.
I rate the collective will of the 'people' every time over that of the 650 MPs in parliament.
https://harrogateagenda.org.uk/
Totally agree, but the State is never going to allow that to happen, and they work hard to keep both sides fighting each other, just as it done for centuries. The collective will of the people just ain't going to be allowed to happen. We know where that ends.
Parliament is arranged to be adversarial - 'divide et impera' - so everything is kept under control, and the 650 MPs are completely irrelevant. The real power resides many layers higher in the system, and it's quite happy to keep a bunch of 'cosmetic, incompetent charlatans' in place.
Democracy is a sham.
But if five of the six demands the Chartists made in 1838 were enacted because of people pressure then I see no reason why a well organised mass people's movement today should not succeed.
If, if, if, if .... Good luck with that, but it will never happen. The Chartists got nearly everything they wanted after 20 years of trying, although probably starting with Peterloo, but all the State had to do was move the goalposts further down the pitch to ensure that it made no difference. And all the time the State gets larger and stronger, because there is more and more that it has to manage and control.
And we end up with a totalitarian State that everyone voted for. I believe it's called 'The Third Way'.
Or perhaps it should properly be called the Third Reich? Ever read much about what was really going on during the last year of WWII in Europe, between the US, Allies, Germany, and the people funding it all in Switzerland?
Well I totally agree the turn around takes time, and will see me out, as after all from the Levellers to the Chartists it took around 270 years for man to get the vote.
However it's all very well assessing we are all doomed but what is your solution for our future?
At least THA offers a template for a new start when we've reached rock bottom!
Sadly, with an ever growing debt balloon that must burst in the near future, we are going to be back in Peterloo territory with people unable to feed themselves.
If there is a mass march on Westminster and Westminster government is overthrown, then THA provides a most excellent template for a new governing body to adopt.
I owe you a reply, and it's helped me to get my thoughts in order.
I am of the opinion now that there is nothing that is going to stop the country's descent into chaos. You only have to look around; it is not hard to see. Everything is now failing and falling apart. The term Managed Decline was conceived over 40 years ago, and we weren't supposed to know about it, but now we should all realise that is what we are living through.
I am also of the opinion that politics and politicians are not going to change this, and that some sort of major upheaval is coming towards us. We have had 7 or 8 PM's in 10 years (I've lost count) and none of them has made any difference, and most of them have just made things worse.
As GregB wrote in reply to you, 'with an ever-growing debt balloon that must burst in the near future, we are going to be back in Peterloo territory'. I think we are there already and all our government can do is to tax the people who work to pay for those that won't work. And if we won't, they will just import a cheaper set of workers to replace us, and at the same time telling the voters they are doing the complete opposite. We have to repay all that debt to the banks and bond markets that actually fund us, you know.
The Elites (the ones who devise and control The System, i.e. our ruling families, the hangers on, the government, bankers, civil servants, court system, quangos, military, etc, etc) know all this already. They have been in control long enough to know where this is going, and it usually ends in civil war and revolution, and it is always due to the money, debt, and starvation.
Over the centuries, we have seen the First English Revolution, the American, French, Russian, Austria-Hungary (WWI), Chinese, Cuban, Iranian, etc, etc. They take decades to play out, and millions are killed in the mayhem that follows.
So, to get to the point of your request for a solution, I don't think I have one because I don't think there is one. Que sera, sera, as the song goes, and there is really nothing that the people can do through the ballot box, as all the power is held by a tiny minority and they are going to ensure that it stays that way.
It may have taken 270 years, from the Levellers to the Chartists, for males to get the vote, but The System made sure it made no difference. Democracy is a sham, and if voting made any difference, they wouldn't let the Great Unwashed vote.
You didn't mention the Diggers, by the way. Were they the first Socialists? Nobody wanted them and they were hounded out of everywhere they tried to establish themselves. And the Levellers? Cromwell made use of them in his army, and then destroyed them after they became a problem. That's the way power works. It ain't nice and kind.
Having something like the THA will not make a blind bit of difference, unless 'the collective will of the people' appears as either a major political force or a revolutionary force. The State knows this and are doing their damndest to ensure it doesn't happen again. They have been at it for 400 years or more, since they lost control to Cromwell, so they have had a lot of practice.
So maybe everyone will suddenly see the light and vote for a new fiscally-conservative party that knows what it is doing. The direction of travel would suggest that will never happen. It has taken 100 years or more (when Britain fought 2 World Wars in quick succession, ran out of money and lost the Empire) to get to this situation. And I guess it will take another 100 years to get out of it.
Or maybe we will see the Second English Revolution. Who knows?
Que sera, sera.
Well that was a long post to say things will get worse, which I've been saying for at least 10 years, and that we face possible revolution with which I again agree!!
BTW you don't 'get' THA the people have to demand political reform and when we do start to build again,as I've said already, it can act as a template to ensure we build something better.
Our governance for years has been based on jobs for the boys and girls and short-termism led by politicians who are largely cosmetic and incompetent.
So in conclusion I agree things will get worse and the THA exists if anybody out there wishes to pick it up and run with it. And finally mass movements work so long as they follow the peaceful principles of Gene Sharp and coordinate via a starfish structure so if one leg is cut off another grows in its place.
Thanks for the exchange - we are I feel on the same page but perhaps in different paragraphs!!
What will undercut Burnham is any Islamic attacks against UK targets.
His decision to retain a Muslim in charge of security who declared her loyalty to Islam, will be indefensible.
Reform has a similar problem. Farage has retreated from mass deportation, saying it’s impossible.
Another atrocity in the UK, will make his statement look like a confession of defeat.
The same applies to the Tory’s who can’t hide from their chronic migratory open borders approach whilst in power.
Restore is able to say ‘I told you so’ after a UK atrocity.
Also in France if Le Pen takes over there will be an interesting conundrum for UK politicians.
If Le Pen stops migration into France and therefore the UK, but more come in from Belgium, what will Burnham (and previous PMs) say about stopping mass migration?
She’s right wing? Well that’s goodbye to the left in the UK.
Trigonometry said a future NHS will have to charge a fee to continue. I don’t think so.
IF mass remigration occurs and re purposed drugs are introduced, labour costs will reduce due to a lower populace and higher efficiency (the task of diagnosis for instance will be taken over by AI).
Re purposed drugs will also make a huge difference for the likes of cancers and arthritis.
Triggonometry also think that mass remigration and reducing populace (due to population aging and reducing birth rates) will lead to a boost to house building?
Surely it is the reverse, a housing excess and lower prices as demand drops seems much more likely.
A house clearance programme seems much more likely.
What will undercut Burnham is any Islamic attacks against UK targets.
His decision to retain a Muslim in charge of security who declared her loyalty to Islam, will be indefensible.
Reform has a similar problem. Farage has retreated from mass deportation, saying it’s impossible.
Another atrocity in the UK, will make his statement look like a confession of defeat.
The same applies to the Tory’s who can’t hide from their chronic migratory open borders approach whilst in power.
Restore is able to say ‘I told you so’ after a UK atrocity.
Also in France if Le Pen takes over there will be an interesting conundrum for UK politicians.
If Le Pen stops migration into France and therefore the UK, but more come in from Belgium, what will Burnham (and previous PMs) say about stopping mass migration?
She’s right wing? Well that’s goodbye to the left in the UK.
Trigonometry said a future NHS will have to charge a fee to continue. I don’t think so.
IF mass remigration occurs and re purposed drugs are introduced, labour costs will reduce due to a lower populace and higher efficiency (the task of diagnosis for instance will be taken over by AI).
Re purposed drugs will also make a huge difference for the likes of cancers and arthritis.
Triggonometry also think that mass remigration and reducing populace (due to population aging and reducing birth rates) will lead to a boost to house building?
Surely it is the reverse, housing excess and therefore lower prices, as demand drops, is much more likely.
A house clearance programme is going to be needed.
I think if Burnham does anything it will be out of economic necessity. The vast majority of immigration has now become a burden, Burnham will be more in touch with the red wall, he must know how unpopular the politicians actions on immigration have been for decades and how it is a driver for low wages. He's got a choice, a proper socialist or a Blairite, he could go either way. But by adjusting the economic model and just cutting the finanical incentives for immigration without forced remigration he could well outflank Reform and Restore.
I can’t help but think that the people behind Burnham are the same as Starmers and previous PMs.
PMs are allowed limited movement in their preferences but are in a loose straight jacket.
Worse still the numbers of migrants Labour believe vote for them limit his latitude even more - as his choice of Home Secretary indicates.
FWIW one of the problems is that the elderly are the ones who pose the heaviest burden on the NHS; take my situation - the most appalling arthritis in my hands preventing me from doing many dexterous tasks such as hanging out washing. Now, I can hang my washing inside on an airer, so this isn't the end of the world, but expand my 'disability' and take into account that any surgery is largely not hugely successful but in any case requires six weeks of not using my hands. That's no washing, no cooking and no making a hot/cold drink. As a widow living alone, recovery in my own home is not helpful at all.
Secondly, offering a discount to buy your property for care workers would only decrease the supply for those workers required as replacements over time. You've just gone around in a complete circle with that one, I'm afraid. I told HMG some years ago, that it should offer discounted rents, especially to inner city essential workers, such as firemen, policemen, ambulance drivers & nurses and such. This would allow people to afford to live in scarce urban accommodation without absorbing almost all of their wage.